May 13, 2008
The Ultimate Martial Arts Insult
It is the ultimate insult if you’re a martial artist, to be told that you attend a "mcdojo." It’s a nasty word in the martial arts, and one that can instantly start a debate. To be accused of spending your time and money on something the equivalent of packaged french fries is just plain infuriating; yet it happens all the time, especially on the internet where computer keyboards can be the equivalent of a seriously nasty sucker punch.
So, what is the official definition of a "McDojo"? According to Wikipedia, the definition of a McDojo is used to "describe a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards." It can also be described as this: "While using the term McDojo primarily indicates judgment of a schoolβs financial or marketing practices, it also implies that the teaching standards of such school may be much lower than that of other martial arts schools, or that the school presents non-martial arts training as martial arts." Finally, a third trait of a "McDojo" is this: "’McDojo’ is also a reference to the proliferation of such schools in many communities in the United States and many other nations, in much the way McDonald’s restaurants have proliferated."
It always amazes me how easily the term "mcdojo" is thrown around the internet. Someone finds a picture or a school website, is feeling insecure themselves, and they decide to start a virtual public stoning amongst their online friends sporting solely internet muscles. Picture of a woman in a gi while pregnant? It has to be a mcdojo. Pictures of kids learning martial arts. Definitely has to be a mcdojo, right?
Wrong.
There are plenty of schools out there who pop up, sign people up to long contracts, and then pack up and move elsewhere. But this isn’t even really a "mcdojo." This is just plain criminal.
The truth about the term "mcdojo" is that it’s subjective, and usually those slinging the mud are the ones who are most insecure about their own training and lineage, or those that have no legitimate training at all. It’s also a common insult among martial artists of differing styles. Personally, I’m not interested in learning grappling and I am thankful that my particular style doesn’t really rely on that as the root of our system. But just because your style is almost 100% grappling doesn’t mean it’s a mcdojo and vice versa. There are different styles for different people. That certainly doesn’t make your style, or mine, wrong.
While more contemporary martial artists might think that old school traditional styles are a lot of hocus pocus and silly spiritual stuff, the truth is that many classical martial artists enjoy this aspect of it. No, we’re not participating in seances to bring back the dead masters and we don’t think we walk on water either. It’s just that the precepts of our styles that centered around humility, respect, and self-analysis make sense to us and compliment what we’re learning in the dojo. A style that teaches a martial art without expressly laying out parameters of when it’s o.k. to use it, especially when teaching kids, is just plain irresponsible. It’s not hocus-pocus; it’s just good old respect, and good martial artists highly value it.
Some of us are learning a martial art for self defense purposes while others just enjoy the martial arts for the peace it brings to their busy lives. But what one person gets out of their martial art doesn’t have to be the exact same thing that another person gets from theirs. It’s truly an individual experience for each person, one that shouldn’t be insulted because it’s not just like the one you do. Sometimes the easiest thing to make oneself feel better is to put others down; but truly the more worth while thing to do would be to figure out why one feels the need to insult other people without knowing anything about them. A little self-discovery never hurt anyone.
Is it frustrating to see 5-year old black belts walking around with bad attitudes to match? Certainly. But if you truly know the value of the belt wrapped around your waist, and more importantly what’s in your head and your heart, then you must know that not all black belts are equivalent. It’s not how hard and fast you kick and punch. It’s not even how many kata you’ve collected in memory, or the color around your waist. It’s knowing that what you’re getting from your dojo is quality, both physically and mentally, and more importantly what that all means to you.
For me, the martial arts has never meant trying to pick apart what’s wrong with everyone else, but rather the ways that I can improve myself whether it’s kata, attitude or something else entirely. How is this different from any other activity that one might do? If you play soccer, you hope to become a better player and you enjoy the good feelings you get from practicing hard or playing a game to the best of your ability. If you’re a musician, you take joy and pleasure in learning a new piece of music and playing it well. With every other activity that’s out there, there is a mental reward for the physical hard work. We don’t think athletes and their post-game endorphins are hokey or silly. The martial arts is really no different.
Don’t professional athletes engage in trash talking on a near-daily basis?
Diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks…some of these people really do need to start looking a lot closer at their own training if they feel the need to attack the way others do it – and they certainly haven’t understood the mental side of martial arts at all – maybe they need a new dojo that emphasises this part of the journey.
Chris: Yes, but the key to your comment is that they are athletes in a sport, not an “art.”
Derykck: Yeah, I agree. Or, if they have no interest in any of the deeper stuff, then don’t knock others who do.
One of the oddest criticism of my dojang I’ve ever heard (apart from others attempting to engage me in a debate whether it is “dojo” or “dojang” and other such nonsense) was someone telling me the school I attended was “wrong” because “it focused too much on cardio” (15-20 minutes is too much?) because, in this guys opinion, the training wasn’t fun.
I surmised that if fun was what he wanted out of his training, he’s probably in the right school.
Strangely, he later acted as if I insulted him!
My son is 6 and taking Tae Kwon Do- do I think his green belt equals that of a 30-year-old with a green belt? No, but for us, for him, it’s about building confidence and believing he can reach goals. It’s about respect and discipline. McDojo or not, I would rather have that than the snarky attitudes of most kids these days.
Couple of quick points, BBM.
First, who’s messing with you now?
Second, my definition (and that of most of my “ilk”) is that a mcdojo is simply a school where money is paramount. High prices, exhorbitant testing fees, mandatory workshops or seminars, contracts, hidden fees and an emphasis on children’s classes over adult classes are some indications that you might train in a mcdojo. The label of mcdojo doesn’t necessarily say anything about the relative qualifications of the instructor. I know of one school in particular in my area that basically sold out and went mcdojo. The guy who runs it isn’t someone I’d ever want to tangle with, is a terrific guy and embodies much of what you might consider laudable in a martial artist. But he made a decision to emphasize making a living and now runs his school to make money, first and foremost.
Lots of mini-black belts, a “black belt club” where you pay extra, guaranteed black belt in X years, tiers of payment, long term contracts and fixed promotion schedules are just a few common traits of a mcdojo.
Where you start getting into the qualifications of the instructor, you’re talking about “*********” for which the website is named. On websites like **********, the people there who aren’t idiots readily accept that you can learn quality martial arts in a mcdojo (even though you are probably paying too much for it.) π
Some hints that you’re involved with ********* can include an instructor’s reluctance to discuss his qualifications to teach. Often, his training is shrouded in mystery, or involves travelling to exotic places and learning from monks, hermits or secret grandmasters.
Another is multiple ranks in very obscure styles. You look at some guys and they’ve got 8 black belts. Could this be legitimate? Sure. But chances are it’s not.
Inventing one’s own style, discovering lost techniques (amazing the amount of “anti-grappling” is being “discovered” in some schools), emphasizing magic or spiritual solutions or implying that at some point the students will learn super-uber deadly secret techniques are all common traits of *********.
Train where you want and for whatever reasons you want. My problem with ********* is that it’s basically a con. My problem with mcdojos is really only that it often involves fleecing parents, where parents aren’t getting what they think they’re getting. If a parent really thinks a 10 year old black belt is going to defend him or herself from an aggressive adult, I believe that’s criminal negligence on the part of the instructor.
Finally, you touched on one point that I think is interesting. Grappling arts (like mine) are great for what they are. I’ve never met a guy at any BJJ school or tournament who alleges to focus chi, knock someone out without touching them, have any secret techniques or anything like that. The guys at my school who are interested in practical self defense supplement BJJ with striking, whether it’s western boxing, muay thai or something else. Part of mcdojo’ism is hyperbolizing the training, discouraging crosstraining and alleging that your style has all the answers. Because of the way I train, I’m very aware of what I can and can’t do. I have several good friends who love to tease me about my “sport” vs their “art”. It’s fun to get together with them and screw around. As I see it, while I’m not learning how to defend myself from 10 ninjas in a dark alley, they’re not even learning how to defend themselves from even one marginally determined, low grade grappler.
***Edited by BBM-Steve did not say a bad word, just a site I’m not giving any business to.
Charlie: People love to pick apart other’s schools and training. “Fun” usually isn’t a requirement for good martial arts training, as far as I know. π
GoMommy: If you’re in a school that doesn’t turn out attitude-laden miniature black belts, but kids who learn respect and something they love, then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Steve: No one is messing with me these days. Picking on a cripple would be in poor taste. π Oh that’s right, taste isn’t usually an issue with certain people. Nevermind. I edited your comment because I refuse to make mention of certain sites on this site. I’m sure you understand why.
I agree with you that those things are annoying and disheartening and that there are many parents and students who are getting ripped off. My annoyance is with people who know nothing about a certain style or school and start making claims they can’t substantiate. If parents want to pay exorbitant amounts to get a guaranteed black belt for their kids in x amount of time, then what business is that of mine or yours? I know what my belt and training means to me and obviously you do as well, so why should anyone be worried about anyone else and what they’ve decided to do? It’s an individual choice. That’s my point.
For the record, BBM, could you please make it clear that I didn’t swear in my comment. The way you edited makes it look like I posted a bad word, which I did not.
Thanks.
***Steve did not swear. Your record is clear. π
Thanks, BBM. I don’t want anyone to think I’m a hooligan! π
I’d never heard the term “mcdojo” before, but that some people would be concerned with putting down certain dojos or types of training doesn’t surprise me. Rivalries and discourtesies born of the insecure and/or judgmental seep into every pursuit it seems.
Steve, if you hadn’t said “grappling” I’d have thought you were in my (ex)dojo! I have every respect for the dojo owner as a martial artist (god knows I wouldn’t want to try to take him in a fight), but the sad fact of the matter is that classes and promotions there are based on money rather than accomplishment. Which means there are some fabulouse TKD people coming out of there (because the technical example is there to be seen if you want to put in the work), and other people of identical rank who can’t throw a straight punch or kick what they’re aiming at!
What a childish thing to say to someone, no matter their level of training. Take it back old school and settle it over a match. Don’t take it personally. If they are exposing a true weakness or find something witty to say about their style.
that last sentence was supposed to be, “If they are exposing a true weakness, work on improving that aspect of YOUR game or find something witty to say about their style.
“McDojo” is fairly new word, but the concept has been around for a while. But aside from instructors in it just for the almighty buck, there are definitely people around who have no place teaching the martial arts. (btw, if you can walk on water, you’ll scare away any attacker. I’ll show you how someday.)
; )
Great post and comments.
Regarding Steve’s comment about the 10 Ninjas and the grappler, we’ve had discussions in our school about how we assume multiple attackers and so train NOT to grapple. However, this is always followed up with a statement about how effective grapplers can be and how you really DON’T want to let one get near you. It’s one of the things I like about my school. They do a great of explaining the trade offs of doing a technique in a certain way versus how it might be done elsewhere. I think this is a good trait to look for in a school or an instructor.
Regarding the money thing, one of my earlier dojos went non-profit, paying its instructors but not totally enriching them. “Not hungry for money. Hungry for students,” the sensei once told a reporter.
At my current school, where you can practice free if you join the fitness club where it operates, I once asked one of our master instructors why he never opened a separate dojo. “Because I never want to see my students as lunch,” he replied.
Don’t worry too much.
people say crazy things.
My mother in-law told me I was a liar. Without seeking any more information. Now, we have a great relationship.
Be well, bbm
I must admit that I’ve used the term “mcdojo” before (although rarely), and sometimes it applies. But I also highly agree that the term is often bandied about by those who look at a dojo that is also a successful business with disdain. Since when does running a dojo succesfully mean that you have sold out?
I like to think I’m very careful in not critiquing other arts or schools–unless I’ve trained with them, I can’t really comment–but after reading your post, I think I’ll be even more careful.
While no one has (as far as I know) referred to my dojo as a “mcdojo,” I’ve gotten plenty of comments along the lines of “Oh! Aikido. That’s not really a martial art, is it?” The term is different, but the intention is the same. People are just afraid to realize that their martial art isn’t the only one around, I guess…
Claire: You’re so right.
PB: Yes, and what happens is that people take one small example and use it to make gross judgements against everyone of a certain style.
ben10dough: I couldn’t agree more.
Chad: Exactly. You have to know what to do against one but that doesn’t mean your style has to only focus on that. Never go to the ground has been my motto.
Mat: That’s the point. I think people should just keep their mouths shut if they don’t have something nice to say. I’m trying to do this more often and people should be more like me. π
Dave: I agree with you! No one said that teaching martial arts had to be entirely non-profit. My instructors have full time jobs and teach and run the school in the evenings, but why shouldn’t they see a little profit from what they do. Regarding aikido, I think it’s pretty cool. I had a session with a friends dad who is a black belt and I thought it was really neat-totally different way of thinking about things.
“My annoyance is with people who know nothing about a certain style or school and start making claims they can’t substantiate.”
Yet, you yourself have done exactly that in the past.
The lady doth protest too much.
I’m totally with Words Twice on this one. BBM is way out of line letting a little steam out about this.
He says the lady doth protest too much, and here here! Now granted nearly his entire blog is protesting about stuff…angrily and without substantive defense. So “some” would say his statement about BBM complaining too much and being hypocritical is entirely hypocritical in itself…but I say don’t bother me with your logic. It’s far too enjoyable to make a sick burn on someone!
You may also be thinking that Words Twice forgot to back up his statements with any real examples of how BBM has made claims about other schools that she couldn’t substantiate. I also recommend overlooking that, as it takes away from the brisk staccato of his statement.
Normally I would take this time to eliminate my own hypocrisy by going back and offering examples of how Words Twice protests almost exclusively on his blog…but I am having an extremely difficult time deciphering it. There doesn’t seem to be any sort of organization or substantial information…just sort of snippets of angry thoughts. Ok I’ll try…May 13 is a pretty big protest about people not knowing the Bill of Rights. On a whim I would suggest writing out a topic of this magnitude with quotes and structure. Of course trying to piece it together from 5 hyperlinks works too, it’s cool.
Don’t make me tell you again BBM – get it together!
wordstwice: I’d have more to say but I think the next commenter pretty much said it. I’d like to kindly refer you to my “about BBM” page-last paragraph and statement.
URAwesome: U R pretty awesome yourself. Verbal sparring first and final round goes to you.
Take it outside boys (or girls). No more fighting in the comments.
Great point and worth making. In our dojo (Lavallees), we often say that martial arts starts and ends with respect. We also talk about humility. I would think that most interpretation of these concepts would preclude speaking badly of other dojos or systems.
Wow! its a nice article about martial arts.Learning a Martial arts for self defense purposes while others just enjoy the martial arts for the peace it brings to their busy lives.
Wow! its a nice article about martial arts.Learning a Martial arts for self defense purposes while others just enjoy the martial arts for the peace it brings to their busy lives.
Wow! its a nice article about martial arts.Learning a Martial arts for self defense purposes while others just enjoy the martial arts for the peace it brings to their busy lives.
Wow! its a nice article about martial arts.Learning a Martial arts for self defense purposes while others just enjoy the martial arts for the peace it brings to their busy lives.
Wow! its a nice article about martial arts.Learning a Martial arts for self defense purposes while others just enjoy the martial arts for the peace it brings to their busy lives.